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Author Topic: Guns.  (Read 25602 times)

Offline neph93

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Guns.
« Reply #150 on: March 26, 2020, 07:55:09 pm »
It is worth a mod pointing out that this thread is for the discussion of guns as a hobby, or part of a lifestyle, be that the use of firearms in hunting, personal defence, sports shooting or just to say, «look at my shiny hand cannons».

While debate about the US relationship to guns and how it conflicts with attitudes in large parts of Europe (for example), is acceptable, it should be without judgement or condemnation. This is an International forum and different regional attitudes will be accomodated, as long as they don’t otherwise breach forum rules and guidelines.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 07:58:00 pm by neph93 »

Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #151 on: March 26, 2020, 07:58:11 pm »
Well said neph. Thanks
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Online Stuart.T

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #152 on: March 27, 2020, 06:16:17 am »
This is an interesting discussion. And wider than cultural attitudes towards firearms (which I will not contribute to here).

I wonder where we might have this discussion in another thread? It is interesting to observe different cultural experiences and attitudes towards social unrest and conflict resolution. I recall the widespread riots in 2010 in the UK. The police were overwhelmed by that, and it was pretty much the community that brought things back under control at local levels.

Which thread could this theme be moved to for a respectful discussion, if others feel a need?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 06:18:16 am by Stuart.T »

Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #153 on: March 27, 2020, 11:48:48 am »
@Stuart.T
 
I would not have this conversation on any media unless someone voluntarily asks "should I or should I not become a firearm owner"

Otherwise it becomes a pushy conversation similar along the lines of "YOU SHOULD BECOME A VEGAN/CROSSFITTER/MORMON!!!"

Moreover, I've found that the anti-gun conversations run parallel in theme and structure to racial conversations from 40 years ago. I did not grow up around firearms or have any real interest in them (I was a die hard "martial arts is the way" kind of guy for most of my life) until a career I had over a decade ago.

The conversation always pushes people who have made the personal decision of owning a firearm to take a moral sacrifice for the "greater good" of society. Just like I should not be married to my wife because she is caucasian and I'm a "dangerous minority." Yes, I've had this conversation too.

I've also noticed that there is a culture of "I don't want to be anywhere where there is any discussion or photographs of firearms" which is another bigoted way to dealing with things: to push a population into the fringes of society so that they can be vilified and ignored.

And an observation: the anti-gun crowd is a bigoted group. Growing up in NYC in the 80s as a minority, and as a *relatively* new gun owner, the parallels are abundantly clear to me. I mean, thank you Mr Rich White Guy for helping me see the errors of my ways. I'm too stupid to make an educated decision for myself /sarcasm.


Partly to be a condescending asshole, but partly because it's the right way to learn and form an opinion, I point people towards Google to begin to understand why I made made these personal decisions. You'll have to separate the bullshit from actual data, but things to enter into the search box:
FBI numbers of defensive gun uses
How many criminals involved in home invasions
Home invasion scenarios
Fact check mass shootings
Why is the AR15 ergonomically superior
How does a spitzer bullet function
Can an unarmed person kill someone
How long is the average police response time


There is also a really good video from the "Adam ruins everything" Youtube series that highlights how gun control started in America as a way to disarm "dangerous minorities." To this day, gun control is pushed hardest and is most successful in areas of the country where there are pockets of "dangerous minority" are a majority.

I'm going to do my best not to have this conversation. I get REALLY angry as my firearms is my primary method to keep my family safe, and taking it away is making my family not safe. You're not going to convince me otherwise, I have researched the topic to death before making this personal decision.

Edited repeatedly because of formatting issues.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 12:19:48 pm by DougNg »
I know violence is not the answer, I got it wrong on purpose

Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #154 on: March 27, 2020, 01:16:03 pm »
Guns are a reality in the US. If you don't like it, that's your business. I've had a problem with drinking in the past (I'm a mean drunk), I have had family members drink themselves to death, and I have family friends that are in the process of it. There are people on this forum that I would categorize as alcoholics, but I don't think this is the right medium to have that conversation with them. I'm a stranger on the other end of an internet connection. There are a few here that I consider real friends. If Giles or Chris or a couple other folks called me and said they needed a kidney I would fly out and hand them a Swiss Army knife and tell them to have at it. But at the end of the day, do you really think you're going to change anyone's mind here? Or are you just letting off a pressure valve and making things worse?


I have a personal policy that if I see someone post up an unintelligent opinion or something just flat out incorrect on my Facebook page I donate $100 to a gun rights group. I had to have a massive purge of my FB friends one year after I had donated over $4k. Those people didn't help their cause by spouting off on social media, just the opposite. Before any of you think it would be funny to make me broke, I'm very quick to hit the "ignore" button.


My objective with my posts here is to distribute technical information to firearm owners or potential firearm owners, as well as demonstrate my personal setups based on my experience.


Making it unpleasant to be in this thread is not helpful, you're making the world a worse place so you can feel like you're "doing something."


If I can share some personal experience or technical knowledge to help someone own a gun more responsibly, or if something I say helps someone make the personal decision that owning a firearm is not for them or is beyond their technical abilities, I feel this is the way to proceed.


For the record, I DO NOT feel that everyone should own a firearm.

I know violence is not the answer, I got it wrong on purpose

Online Stuart.T

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #155 on: March 27, 2020, 04:26:16 pm »
@DougNg I consciously decided not to comment on firearm ownership. I don't own one and couldn't really buy one if I wanted to in the UK so I am not qualified to comment in this thread.

That's why I thought it would be helpful to take one of these conversations outside of this thread.

I notice that the knife thread isn't full of similar comments, even though knife crime is at epidemic levels in the UK. I'm quite partial to an edc knife. But that's another thread.

Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #156 on: March 27, 2020, 04:39:28 pm »
There have been a few comments over the years, but that thread is a lot longer. If the topic of knife crime comes up in another thread I have an observation of how the media portrays the problem on my side of the pond
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Offline DrPat

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #157 on: March 27, 2020, 06:10:02 pm »
I do have some concerns about all the new gun owners we've created in the last ten days. While owning and handling a firearm is pretty simple (there are only four safety rules), I'm not sure people are getting the training they need. I put down a lot of ammo downrange a year, in training and practice, I'm fairly competent. I foresee some folks who have never been around guns before having accidents.

Doug, how does someone not in the military or police train for live situations?  How do you simulate the fear and adrenaline involved?  Professionals are required to undergo regular training and tests.

My fear is that someone buys a gun, trains with it on the range, and then panics when facing a real threat.  Stray fire, ricochets, and bullets passing through the indented target will all cause collateral damage.

Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #158 on: March 27, 2020, 06:41:33 pm »
This is an excellent question that I need to break into separate parts.
For civilian training, there are a number of ways shooters induce stress to have metrics to measure performance. First is a simple shot timer. The shot timer rings, you have a drill (five shots to center mass/two to the chest, one to the head/fire one shot, reload, fire again). You measure the time to complete the drill, the number of misses, and the amount of time between shots.

The second option is to take a course that involves simunition. This is a course where you are given a scenario (move to point a to point b/barricade your bedroom/active shooter on the other side of a supermarket) and you fire realistic paintballs at one another. The guns used are nearly identical to real guns, except they're blue and the painballs hurt like a motherfucker.
There is a fallacy that police officers are gun people. Police officers may or may not be gun people, and there is a large population of them that only fire their guns for the required practice time and then for their annual qualification. The required practice is sometimes as low as 50 rounds per six months, and the qualification is 70% on paper at 7 yards (some departements have greater distances, but none of the distances are particularly challenging). To put that into perspective, a few years ago I was putting 1000 rounds downrange in a week, I could empty a magazine into a space about 3cm wide at 7m, and I could hit a fist sized target at 25m. A retired police officer friend of mine said that where a cop really stands out is their ability to deescalate a situation.
Police officers largely do not practice with shot timers or simunition rounds, unless they are in a specialized unit. To my knowledge, there is not a common requirement for this.

70% on paper...on a target that doesn't shoot back...where the hell does the other 30% go?

There are a number of things that people can do to mitigate their backstop should they need to fire their gun in self defense. Any civilian with a decent amount of training will be cognizant of their backstop, that's the first thing. If you are firing at an angle you can mitigate the backstop as well (missed rounds will go into the ground or up into a wall).

One of the four rules of firearms safety is "be aware of your target and what is beyond it."
Lastly, one of the smartest things someone can do to to mitigate overpenetration is to have an AR15 at home for self defense. There is an outright lie that the AR15 is a tremendously powerful weapon. A 9mm pistol fires a bullet that is twice the size of an AR15 (at least). It's also moving 1/3 the speed. The the bullet from an AR15 hits a solid object, it shatters (with some exceptions because they are designed not to fragment). So if I fire a round from my AR15 into my wall, a small piece may make it into my neighbors house and it is so small and so slow it's unlikely to be lethal (this is what I was referring to before with the Spitzer bullet, the terminal ballistics is totally different than a hollow point).

Fire a 9mm pistol and it will zip out of my house and into my neighbors and come to rest in the far wall.
Fire a hunting round, it will come to rest in my neighbors neighbors house.
Fire a shotgun slug...it'll stop when it hits something REALLY hard and dense. Like an air conditioning unit...or an engine...or the earth...
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Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #159 on: March 27, 2020, 06:45:18 pm »
@DrPat

I hope that answers your questions.

Also, could you please share the testing and training standards you know of for military and LEO?
To anyone else interested, I encourage you to look up the terminal ballistics of 5.56 ammo. Either via penetration testing or gel testing. Again, you'll have to separate the actual info from the bullshit, but there are a lot of resources out there.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 06:48:06 pm by DougNg »
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Offline steelworker

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #160 on: March 27, 2020, 06:57:42 pm »
Interesting, @DougNg . What do you think of shotguns for home? I've a short barrel Benelli .
No slugs for home, anyway.
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Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #161 on: March 27, 2020, 07:01:17 pm »
I know we like to joke that I run around with my gun tucked in my waistband looking for a fight, but this is my self/home defense plan:
When I'm out and about I have a 9mm pistol with me. Rule 1: avoid stupid people in stupid places doing stupid things. That's just kind of a life rule, not a firearms rule. I'm not quick to get into an argument with anyone, I just don't care enough about the unwashed masses enough to get into a tussle with them. Should someone start coming to me aggressively, I have a Surefire flashlight in my rear left pocket. First thing I go is shine that directly into their eyes. It's unpleasant. I proceed with screaming my head off "I see you, get the fuck away, GET THE FUCK AWAY" before I even mention lethal force. At this point I will draw my weapon and say "get the fuck down show me your goddamn hands someone call the cops right now help help help." I do everything possible to avoid shooting someone. I practice this a couple times a week.
Home defense: I live in a four story house. The outside has signs that indicate I have a home security service, I have security cameras, and BIG signs that say there is a dog on the premises. Not that my dog will eat you, that there is a dog on premises. There's a legal reason for this. This makes my house undesirable as a target, you should go pick a fight with the guy down the street with his head in the sand. If anyone is observing my house with the intention of robbing it, they will see I walk my 110lb Rottweiler four times a day. Should some idiot decide to kick down the door, the alarm will trip and make a lot of noise. I will grab my rifle, send my wife and dogs upstairs to hide in the walk in closet, and repeatedly shout down the stairs "take what you want, but if you come here I will kill you." I will have the police on the phone at that time. With a little luck they will arrive to take care of the situation without shots being fired. Honestly, the most expensive thing I have downstairs is my blender and all of that stuff is covered by my insurance. The TV isn't even 1080p and it's not that nice. I couldn't care less if they take that stuff. If they want to come up then they have bad intentions in mind.
I hope this demonstrates that I am really not interested in shooting anyone, and I have multi layered plans to deal with anyone who would intend to do me or my family harm. Anyone with a modicum of common sense would not escalate. I received some valuable advice years ago: you don't shoot to end a life, you shoot to save a life. That has stuck with me for a really long time.
There is a wide line between being able to do something, and having the desire to do it.
I know violence is not the answer, I got it wrong on purpose

Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #162 on: March 27, 2020, 07:06:30 pm »
@steelworker

First, that's a nice shotgun dude.Second...it depends...what load do you have in it? What is the greatest distance you would need to fire?
My concern is how it patterns. If you have a lot of people in your house then a stray pellet could be an issue. I'm sure you know, but others might not, but a shotgun spread is roughly one inch per meter. If you have to take a 15m shot, you've got 15 inches of spread. That can get tricky.
In general, I've seen autoloading shotguns get finicky. Not for me, but if you have one that's reliable NEVER SELL THAT THING. They're amazing and about as much fun as you can have with your pants on.
Really nice shotgun...
One last thing and it could be a moot point (stealing a line from the legendary Clint Smith): handguns put holes in people, rifles put holes through people, shotguns will take a chunk of meat off and you'll need to pick it up off the floor with a shovel.
Cleanup will require professionals...
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Offline Fluster.Cluck

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #163 on: March 27, 2020, 08:57:40 pm »
DougNg I like that plan you outlined, having police on the phone and saying don't come up here etc. basically leaving the actual firing of a weapon the last possible choice.

Glad you mentioned misfire and cycle issues. So many times hunting with a clean and well maintained gun have I had cycle issues and missfires. It's why I prefer over/under shotguns myself now (plus I shoot them better at moving targets anyways) and revolvers. I enjoy the simplicity and looks of both.

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Offline DrPat

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #164 on: March 27, 2020, 09:06:20 pm »
@DrPat

I hope that answers your questions.

Also, could you please share the testing and training standards you know of for military and LEO?
To anyone else interested, I encourage you to look up the terminal ballistics of 5.56 ammo. Either via penetration testing or gel testing. Again, you'll have to separate the actual info from the bullshit, but there are a lot of resources out there.
Thanks for the info Doug.  It’s good to know that at least some civilians train for the situations for which they bought their gun.

I’ve never been the military or law enforcement.  The info I’m going by is from what’s posted online and talking to people involved.

Also, from my experience in sports, it doesn’t how much you practice alone, you also need to experience competition to become a better competitor.  I can only imagine this more extreme in life or death situations.