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Author Topic: Guns.  (Read 29080 times)

Offline DougNg

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Guns.
« Reply #165 on: March 27, 2020, 10:06:34 pm »
There are shooting sports but it's gotten to the point of ridiculousness. These guns are highly modified purely for sport. It's like saying you're a brilliant F1 driver so I must be great at driving on the autobahn.


There are some shooting competitions that are more realistic, but none really capture the realism. For example, almost all of them use competition holsters, whereas most people have the muzzle tucked close to their bodies when they conceal carry.


With that being said, the competition world has influenced heavily on modern shooting. The techniques used in competition shooting have translated to law enforcement to military. For instance, doctrine was to use a bladed stance for a long time. When body armor came out, LE and Mil figured out that the plates should be facing the target. Competition shooters had been shooting that way for a while as it forms a more stable platform to control recoil. Also, getting shot from the front you could lose the use of one lung and you will live, but a transverse shot will take out both lungs and maybe your heart.


Also a good tool for training:


https://nextleveltraining.com/product/sirt-110-training-pistol-2/


This has really upped my skills as I can practice at home without firing a single round. Before I got this thing I just didn't have time to head to the range often enough, plus they don't allow me to fire from a draw at my favorite range. I can practice my draws and first shot at home and then practice my recoil management at the range. The two combine themselves really well when you can get to an outdoor range where you can do both.


I'm getting this on payday:


https://mantisx.com/products/blackbeard-the-auto-resetting-trigger-for-ar-15?variant=31803986444378
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 10:45:18 pm by DougNg »
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Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2020, 10:28:28 pm »
DougNg I like that plan you outlined, having police on the phone and saying don't come up here etc. basically leaving the actual firing of a weapon the last possible choice.

Glad you mentioned misfire and cycle issues. So many times hunting with a clean and well maintained gun have I had cycle issues and missfires. It's why I prefer over/under shotguns myself now (plus I shoot them better at moving targets anyways) and revolvers. I enjoy the simplicity and looks of both.

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Reliability is the biggest reason why I don’t like the magazine fed shotguns. Just from experience with 22lr pistols, rimmed cartridges just don’t like being in magazines.

Hey, shoot what you know. Especially in times like this.

I have a strange curiosity with revolvers, but I don’t own one. I learned to shoot on a Sig P226, and now my go to are Glocks for a bunch of reasons.
I know violence is not the answer, I got it wrong on purpose

Offline steelworker

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #167 on: March 28, 2020, 01:54:00 am »
#4buck @DougNg , though people have told me I should have 00. Idk, everyone has an opinion on this and I should know more than I do.
@Fluster.Cluck I shot clays with o/u and , well I shot AT clays, I couldn't get the hang of it. I don't believe I hit anything with the 2nd shot
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast

Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #168 on: March 28, 2020, 02:33:51 am »
@steelworker


Like you said, everyone has an opinion. I load my Mossberg 590 with Federal 00 Flitecontrol. I like the tighter pattern and reduced recoil, but honestly, I have it just to have it. I'm not much of a shotgun guy.


My wife and I have standardized our guns, so what I use for defensive purposes she can as well. The shotgun is challenging for her as she's...big on top...and the length of pull is a stretch for her.
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Offline Fluster.Cluck

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #169 on: March 28, 2020, 02:40:11 am »
@steelworker it took me a lot of time and hundreds of rounds, both shooting clays and hunting waterfowl.

I can't over think it, and when I shoot I honestly don't even know if I see the bead or sight, I have to look at the target and let hand eye coordination take over.

My other hunting partners say they have to concentrate and focus more. Everyone is different I guess.


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Offline louisbosco

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #170 on: March 28, 2020, 05:36:29 am »

Also, could you please share the testing and training standards you know of for military and LEO?


i can't comment on law enforcement but from experience in the military:

military standards are meant for you to learn, know, understand and execute a drill well. you need to know what has to be done even if you're blindfolded. basic training usually takes place at a range. 100m with both static and moving targets. advancing bound by bound down to 20m (IIRC). which is the norm for conventional warfare. we are trained to move as a section not as an individual shooter. 400m ranges are uncommon but they will be used once in awhile. again, you are trained to move as a unit and taking cover and not as an individual

for urban warfare, CQC training within a small room or building is what the "range" would look like. we mostly require 2-3 per section and the emphasis is on clearing as many rooms as you can within a certain rooms/ area/ building. be it to secure a location or to use it as a defence base. usually when doing these training or exercises, we have an objective and the goal is to meet that objective.

the common misconception is that most military people are gun people and the have all the knowledge on firearms and ammunition. but that's not usually the case. we train on what weapons we come into contact the most with and this includes anti tank weapons and explosives. but most would hardly venture outside your standard sidearm (sig226/227)and rifle (m4/ar15/m203 etc) combo. 

the vast knowledge and info @DougNg is all down to an individual. i would dare say not many military or law enforcement (ex or current) would know all that just from being in service.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 05:38:53 am by louisbosco »
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Offline DrPat

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #171 on: March 28, 2020, 07:23:24 am »
the common misconception is that most military people are gun people and the have all the knowledge on firearms and ammunition. but that's not usually the case. we train on what weapons we come into contact the most with and this includes anti tank weapons and explosives. but most would hardly venture outside your standard sidearm (sig226/227)and rifle (m4/ar15/m203 etc) combo. 

Did you train to remain calm and perform under fire or are you expected to obtain those skill once you've actually experienced combat?

Everything changes when the target is shooting back and this is where I would expect a soldier to excel, even if they don't have detailed firearm knowledge.

Offline Stuart.T

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #172 on: March 28, 2020, 07:41:09 am »
@DougNg how often have you been in life situations where you have had to use the strategies you describe? I'm genuinely curious and do not mean to be critical by any means.

When I was younger and lived a much different life, I had a sawn off pulled on me once, and a small side arm pulled on me once. I was not armed on one occasion, and was carrying a knife on the 2nd (remember, this is the UK). Only serious criminals and farmers carry fire arms here.

The guy with the sawn off jumped out of a parked car and wanted to know where a certain person was. It was mid afternoon, and people were around. He quickly jumped back in and drove off. It was daunting.

The 2nd was in a bar owned by Hells Angels in Dagenham, East London. An friend back then jumped the que for the pool table and got into an argument with a guy that lifted his Tshirt to reveal a hand gun tucked in his waistband. I told my friend to back away. Instead he fronted the guy out with a pool que. The guy walked away and left. Thenkfully he didn't come back, but that could have played out a whole lot differently.

I've had knives pulled on me 3 times. Twice I've walked at pace towards them shouting, they've run away. 3rd time I also had a knife and threatened back. They were a younger teenager and panicked and we talked the situation down.

I made a very conscious decision to leave that life when I was 20.i don't think most people realise how the brain and body reacts when placed in these situations. For me it has varied from blind terro and panic to controlled adrenalin giving me a buzz.

I haven't found myself in a similar situation for about 28 years, and I don't intend to. When I did Wing Chun, our very competent Sifu used to say if you get into a conflict and can, run, run, run, just before he demonstrated advanced floor grappling techniques (I never learned these). A physical confrontation generally ends badly for both parties, 1 or both get injured, and 1 or both get arrested.

Offline louisbosco

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #173 on: March 28, 2020, 09:46:03 am »

Did you train to remain calm and perform under fire or are you expected to obtain those skill once you've actually experienced combat?

Everything changes when the target is shooting back and this is where I would expect a soldier to excel, even if they don't have detailed firearm knowledge.

this is where mission exercises comes into play. the purpose of exercises is to simulate as close to real circumstances of an actual operation with opposition forces, with blanks of course. don't get me wrong, an exercise is no walk in the park.you're still expected to proceed at 100% and the only difference from the real op is blanks vs bullets.  most militaries around the world conduct joint exercises and this is where you get the opportunity to learn even more.

training vs exercises vs operation requirements are different. the basis of training and exercise is to focus on what you're doing to ensure you're doing it right. whether it's learning to be calm and composed or weapons training or tactical knowledge, when it actually comes to operation situations, i'll say that 50% these training go out the window and you rely on a very different set of personal qualities to ensure you deal and adapt to an ever-changing scenario. the fact that live rounds, explosive and such are fired at you in a highly escalated war zone is very much different to domestic usage.

luckily or unluckily (however you see it), the country i served is not active in any ongoing war. the closest i've been in an "operation" scenario was to protect and secure key installation networks (KIN) around the country. from a country with strict gun laws, walking around with a loaded rifle in a public place is a whole different ball game, knowing that anything can happen at anytime purely because it is a KIN. it's much different to USA where you're just doing your daily routine and you know that a weapon is mostly use for self defense or as a deterrent.

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Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #174 on: March 28, 2020, 12:14:13 pm »
@DougNg how often have you been in life situations where you have had to use the strategies you describe? I'm genuinely curious and do not mean to be critical by any means.


We had one break in while we were home where they came in through the garage at 3am while they were sleeping. They set off the alarm but still took off with the car and a couple other things. They didn’t come up beyond the first floor as far as I could tell.

I’ve had a couple altercations in recent memory. Once was in New Orleans where I scared the guy off with my flashlight. He was drunk and looking for trouble.

Another was a similar situation in Miami as I was walking off a large meal.

A group of men were following my wife and I in Seattle when we got lost coming back from Chinatown. We got lost around the football stadium area. They took off when I escalated it by making a beeline towards them. They were looking for an easy target.

One time I had to come to my wife’s rescue as she was walking the our new puppy (Hex, our first Rott) and they were verbally yelling that they were going to “knock her out”. This was during the knockout game challenge. I won’t explain, it’s so disgusting.

I was harassed/mugged/beaten several times living in NYC. A couple times by knifepoint.

My area goes under high alert every once in awhile because we have several military bases around and apparently the markets and other areas where people congregate are targets for shooters or bombers.

I read the local police reports and we have home invasions, kidnappings, assaults and murders frequently enough that I’m genuinely concerned. One of my neighbors 100m away from my house got knifed in his driveway for his DJ equipment.

I live in a nice area. Google bowie, md. Houses go between $350k-$1M. We’re just soft targets and everyone lives with their head in the sand, so we make a lot of victims.
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Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #175 on: March 28, 2020, 12:23:19 pm »
I might be leaving stuff out but I literally just woke up. Jody and I were up watching shitty tv. Feel free to ask follow up questions
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Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #176 on: March 28, 2020, 12:35:40 pm »
It’s not just the frequency or proximity that concerns me. In Baltimore during the riots a bunch of teenagers poured gasoline on a pizza store owner and we’re going to set him on fire. They gave up when they couldn’t get their lighter to work. Even the Islamic State condemns immolation.

In New Jersey a woman had her door kicked in and she was beaten in front of her months old baby before her house was robbed. This was caught on nanny cam.

In ny a four year old was raped after her mother was killed in front of her. On the street. In daylight. In a parking lot.

We raise a different kind of sociopath here.
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Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #177 on: March 28, 2020, 01:10:51 pm »

For the gun owners:

I want to piggyback on something that @louisbosco said: 2-3 people to clear a structure.


By definition of "clearing", you cannot clear a structure alone. People think that gun owners can LARP around their house "clearing" it. You can sweep a structure alone, but you cannot clear it alone because you cannot secure the areas that you have already swept.


The best (and really only option) in a home defense scenario is to get your family into a single room, secure the entrances to the room and wait for the police to arrive.


If anyone has ever taken a force on force training course (what I was talking about before with simunition rounds), even with two people it's really tough.


I know it's annoying I post repeatedly like this. My coffee is kicking in slowly, I have some memory issues because of sleep deprivation, and I will forget if I don't put it up now.
I know violence is not the answer, I got it wrong on purpose

Offline JDelage

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #178 on: March 28, 2020, 01:50:05 pm »
The resources for gun training available to dedicated Americans are not comprehensible by most Europeans. It reaches at least special forces level, in terms of size, versatility, technology, etc, available as a commercial entity. It's hard to fathom.

Offline DougNg

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Re: Guns.
« Reply #179 on: March 28, 2020, 02:40:05 pm »
@JDelage


Oh, you have no idea.


Stateside, retired Special Forces guys have their own schools. They have some really excellent books too.


Larry Vickers, Pat Macnamara were both Army Special Forces
Vigilance Elite is run by a former SEAL Team member (Sean Ryan, the owner, worked directly with Keanu Reeves for JW3)
Travis Haley was a CIA contractor after he left the military


There is a monstrous list of guys that got shot at for a living that offer courses for civilians (and law enforcement and military).


Additionally they have a lot of free online resources on YouTube. I have a hard time keeping my temper when people don't have educated opinions about firearms and firearm tactics when all that information is available to them for free and they can't be bothered to actually learn anything before opening their mouths. There are some "tactics" out there that are flat out unsafe because people have uneducated opinions.


"Clearing a house" by yourself is my favorite pet peeve.


I received most of my training from the former Baltimore Police Department Trainer, before she was retired for a work related injury (gunshot wound). While the military style training is fun, it's not realistic for me and my lifestyle. Donna has become a family friend and creates scenarios that are relevant to my life.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 02:43:54 pm by DougNg »
I know violence is not the answer, I got it wrong on purpose